Table of Contents
In this episode, I spoke with Georgia Gadsby March, the co-founder and PR director of UK-based digital PR agency, Unearth PR.
I reached out to Georgia because she has a background in traditional PR and now works in digital PR. I thought it would be a great way to understand the overlap, and I wasn’t disappointed.
We discussed everything from tactical tips for outreach and list building to philosophical questions about the direction the industry is heading.
We had a fantastic conversation and came away with some great tips, which I’ve outlined below.
Actionable Takeaways
Here are some actionable takeaways from our talk. I’ve also provided a few nice quotes as references.
Integrate Traditional and Digital PR Tactics
Georgia emphasizes the growing importance of blending traditional vs digital PR strategies to maximize impact. She suggests looking at both backlink profiles and brand reputation to align with client goals.
“A lot of clients are trying to get as much bang for their buck as possible…trying to blend the tactics.”
Personalize Outreach Effectively
Georgia stresses the importance of personalization in outreach to make journalists feel valued and increase engagement. This can be as simple as referring to their recent work or customizing the pitch to match their tone and style.
“It’s making sure that we’re viewing the journalists from a human perspective and not just as a number that makes up an open rate.”
Build and Maintain Media Relationships
Building long-term relationships with journalists, even if it’s just being remembered for responsiveness or relevance, is crucial. This doesn’t require close personal relationships but consistent, meaningful interactions.
Focus on Ethical PR Practices
Ensuring the information provided is accurate and that experts quoted are truly qualified is becoming increasingly important. Georgia notes the industry’s shift toward more ethical considerations.
Segment Media Lists for Efficient Outreach
Georgia recommends segmenting media lists into different priority levels to manage time effectively while maintaining personalized outreach. High-priority contacts receive more personalized pitches, while others receive semi-personalized communication.
Utilize Social Media to Engage Journalists
Engaging with journalists on social platforms like Twitter and LinkedIn can help build relationships and keep you on their radar. Georgia advises interacting with their posts and making genuine connections.
Move Away from Bulk Outreach
The trend is shifting from bulk outreach to more targeted, personalized approaches. This approach not only respects journalists’ time but also increases the likelihood of coverage.
Be Strategic in Ideation by Looking Outside Your Industry
Inspiration for PR campaigns should come from a wide range of sources, not just within the same industry. Georgia suggests looking at successful marketing campaigns, TV shows, and more to spark creative ideas.
Turn Off Link Tracking for Better SEO Results
Using tracking links can result in diluted SEO value. Georgia recommends turning off click tracking to ensure the links obtained provide the full SEO benefit.
Emphasize Value in Expert Commentary
When providing expert commentary, ensure it adds unique insights or new angles rather than just repeating known facts. This helps position the expert as a thought leader.
Transcript
In case you don’t feel like listening, here’s a transcript for you!
Vince: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the BuzzStream podcast. My name is Vince Nero, the director of content marketing here. Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Georgia Gatsby March, the co founder and PR director of Unearth PR. Hello, Georgia. Thanks for joining.
Georgia: Hello, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Vince: Yeah, this is going to be a great conversation. Georgia has a great background in kind of a mix of traditional PR and digital PR, so I thought we could talk about the kind of intersection of both of them. Before we get into it, I just want to remind everybody to, you know, like and subscribe, share this kind of stuff with your friends and colleagues so we can help get these great tips and insights from guests like Georgia out to digital PRs.
You know, helping people become better digital PRs and link builders. That’s the whole goal of this thing. So Georgia, I want to start with kind of an icebreaker that we do sometimes with people, and I feel like you’re a great person to ask this. What is the coolest piece of digital PR that you’ve seen recently?
Georgia: There have been, honestly, so many good ones, but one that I literally saw yesterday in Loud Bible. So I’m a bit of a, like, an action movie fan. I literally saw the Mad Max movie last night, and I saw this and I was like Oh, nice. Yeah, this is so me. It was like the best and worst, um, cities to survive a zombie apocalypse.
And I just saw it and I actually read the whole thing and I loved it. And it was exactly like a, like a traditional, like really cool digital PR campaign. Like it had all the elements of it. Like I had, I think it was like an interactive landing page, um, a really like solid methodology. So like, even though it was a very like fun piece, it was like really well thought out.
Um, I’m not sure that agency, but I think that it was like a rental platform that had done it and yeah, definitely recommend like anyone just go and Google like zombie apocalypse and I’m sure it will come up in news, um, in Google news. But yeah. Well, so what was the, what was the best city? Can’t leave it hanging.
I can’t remember. I was just looking at my own thing. I was being so, like, self absorbed and just like, where am I on the map? Well, that’s great. I mean, that, that’s, I guess, one of the key reasons that people like to do those and what makes those shareable. So I think that’s probably a great segue into some of what we’re going to talk about today.
Vince: Let’s step back a little bit. I mentioned in the intro that you have a Digital PR background, which sounds like a half-and-half. So, what I was really interested in talking to you about today was this idea of the crossover and what people can learn. So, let’s start by defining traditional PR in your experience. Yeah, for sure.
Georgia: So, I mean, having worked in both, I feel like whilst the lines are kind of blurring at the moment a little bit, I still feel like there is quite a clear difference and it’s very much, if you work on an agency side, you can see that with like the point of contacts and their different priorities, I would say, um, traditional PR is very much all about like brand building and having a maintaining a positive reputation.
Uh, reputation, I would say that’s like the main objective. Um, so it’s all about kind of like brand credibility, building brand awareness. And I would say there’s. It’s almost like a vanity aspect in traditional PR as well. Not necessarily in a bad way. Obviously I work in traditional PR, so I wouldn’t bash it.
Um, but the vanity side of it is more like, okay, what publications are going to make our client look great. So it’s very much about like audience or customer perception. Whereas obviously digital PR, we’re very much more into like the data and the, the bottom line kind of figures. Yeah, so you mentioned a couple of things in there, like this idea of brand building, brand awareness.
Vince: Do you feel like that is important? Not something that plays into digital PR, or is it just not at the forefront?
Georgia: I think it’s probably more secondary. I think it’s still a big thing. Obviously there’s been so many conversations around relevance in digital PR at the moment. So we’re always talking about how can we make something incredibly relevant to the brand, what’s happening.
And then if that builds links as well, then that’s fantastic. So I think it’s very much all down to things like organic traffic, revenue, then links. Then brand awareness.
Vince: Yeah. Yeah. I like that hierarchy. Well, let’s talk about now kind of where you draw the line Between traditional and digital like when does it become digital PR?
That’s a really interesting one I think when it becomes digital PR is You can really see it in a strategy. So with the clients that I work with now, I have some that are really strictly like, it’s very obviously traditional and some that are very obviously digital PR and some that are a really nice mixture of the two.
And when you look at a digital PR strategy versus a traditional PR strategy, There’s a very key differences. So I think it’s things like when you build a strategy, you look at, you know, um, backlink profiles of competitors and you’re really kind of digging deep into, okay, what keywords are they ranking for?
And, you know, looking at that kind of stuff, whereas with traditional PR, it’s more kind of the top level of, okay, where are competitors being featured and that kind of thing.
So there’s definitely, I think where I draw the line is digital PR is yeah. Much more, um, data led and, uh, strategic in the sense of following that data.
Whereas traditional PR is more creative in a sense.
Vince: Yeah. I mean, so maybe we could talk about a few campaigns to, to help really nail down the difference. I mean, I know probably some of our listeners know this, especially those with the traditional PR background, but like, you know, I’ve seen things on these like digital PR roundups or newsletters that people share, which are great.
But I feel like it’s like, there’s some overlap, product launches, things like, you know, I see these all the time where it’s like a candle or something that smells like whatever, you know, a candle that’s reading my mind. Yeah, the candle campaigns, that’s a strategy. So something like that, where it’s like, Maybe not even a real product, right?
Some of these are fake products, but the goal there, I guess, is to get links. It is also like it’s a PR play, right? Like it’s just like kind of like a news. So where would you take something like that? Like it’s really product focused.
Georgia: I mean, I feel like I’m instantly going back on it myself.
Cause I’ve just said traditional PR is more creative. Now we’re talking about candles and digital PR. So that is honestly such a fine line. I think. I mean, I’ve done a lot of like product campaigns like that, and they’re super fun to work on. And I think where I suppose you can take it is it’s very much, I mean, coming from an agency perspective, obviously it might be different in house, but you can really take it in any direction the client’s looking for and other internal stakeholders.
So, when I run product campaigns, yes, I’m thinking about the links, but I’m also thinking about, well, how can we, like when people actually come onto that page, you know, what can we get from them?
Can we get an email? Could we even make a sale? Is there an actual product we can create here that actually creates revenue for the business?
So I think in digital PR, it’s definitely all about that bottom line.
And I think now, we are thinking more about that than we used to. Whereas we used to think more about links, links, links. We’re now thinking, okay, well, how could this impact, you know, social teams or, um, you know, even traditional PR teams and working together to create something.
So yeah, it can definitely go in, in lots of different directions and it is a very fine line between the two.
Vince: Yeah. Yeah. For someone who doesn’t have a traditional PR background like myself, does the bottom line get talked about in calls?
Georgia: With traditional PR? It’s very dependent on client to client. I think some will, they really want to try and see that value and it can be really, really difficult to prove.
With traditional PR, because obviously, they don’t always want to see those long-term, organic traffic influences later down the line, it’s more like, okay, we’ve got a piece of coverage, and what’s the ROI on this, and that can be a difficult conversation. Um, but I think people who are very clued up.
But Digital PR and, uh, they come on board and they are points of contact, they’re a lot easier to work with in that sense, because they understand that, you know, it’s not always measurable. Sometimes it’s more about, again, like those kinds of fluffy, like brand awareness, social shares.
Vince: Well, so yeah, can we dig in a little bit there?
Cause I think it’ll help me understand and some listeners like that the KPIs for digital PR versus traditional, like when, when you, when you’re talking about brand awareness, obviously like that’s a tough thing to quantify. So what do KPIs look like for traditional PR?
Georgia: I mean, I think it’s different for a lot of different agencies. For me, I suppose I’m a little bit rogue. Cause I obviously like I run my own agency, so I can kind of, I’m very lucky in the fact that I have the flexibility to kind of set whatever KPIs. I want to kind of have that say so, but what I encourage when clients come in, as I say, like, look, a lot of these KPIs that are used in traditional agencies are kind of vanity metrics.
So it would be like your coverage views and like number of number of coverage, for example, very similar to like number of links and digital PR. But that’s not necessarily just because you’ve got, you know, a million views on a piece of coverage. That doesn’t mean that a million people are coming to your website and buying things.
So I try and have that open conversation with them. Um, and then in terms of KPIs, you know, we do tend to keep it like quite simple. Like. Number of coverage, but then we do reports where we try and look into like the overall impact. So like measuring things like reputation, share of voice, and that’s what we focus on.
So try not to have a KPI and focus more on the bigger impact, but if there has to be a KPI, it will usually be something like coverage, um, amount of coverage. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you do your best to kind of steer some of the traditional KPIs more towards digital, right? Cause it’s. It’s just easier to quantify.
I think it’s so like easy to do that when you’ve got the experience in both. You kind of accidentally, a lot of the time I find I accidentally turn a traditional PR client into a digital PR client cause they didn’t have the knowledge that digital PR existed. And then when I tell them about it, they’re like, Oh, we want to do that instead, and then it becomes like a nice blend, which is fine.
I enjoy it. More work for myself though.
Vince: Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel that this idea of Digital PR is more quantifiable? Um, do you feel like the industry is pushing more that way? Do you tend to push more towards that way with people that are coming in with more traditional, uh, mindsets or goals?
Are you trying to kind of push them to think more about the bottom line and how it all connects and, and organic traffic, SEO and everything?
Georgia: Definitely. Yeah. And I think people that are working in traditional PR are especially those that are working in house that do become our point of contacts. If we work in an agency setting, they are getting so much more clued up now.
And there’s so much education around kind of digital PR. And I think there’s a lot of, Um, like I I’ve seen like coverage book have started, they were always very traditional PR and now they’ve started inviting digital PRs onto like their podcasts and marketing and it’s happening quite a lot with a lot of traditional PR, uh, kind of tools and outlets.
Um, so the line again, it’s becoming very blurred and personally, if a client wants traditional PR, I can give them traditional PR, but I would advise them in reporting to like, look at other things outside of just, you know, your coverage views so they can see real impact. Um, something I’m noticing a lot from clients, um, in the agency I run, but also in agencies I’ve been in before is a lot of clients are, Kind of trying to get, I suppose, as much bang for their buck as possible.
So they may have come on board for digital PR, but then they’re requesting, um, digital PRs build links, uh, with like founder profiling tactics or product outreach, things that would have originally sat with a traditional PR team, um, and vice versa, traditional PR teams being asked to report on links, which they never would have had to do before.
So I think. As you know, the economy worldwide, I’d say probably isn’t in the most amazing place. A lot of businesses are suffering. They are trying to get the most for their money by. Going with a digital PR or traditional PR, but trying to blend the tactics. So that’s interesting as well.
Vince: Yeah. I mean, do you think that’s what is really the impetus behind this shift is a purely monetary thing where they’re trying to get the most bang for their buck, or people, or are people sarting to realize that traditional PR maybe isn’t as effective?
I’m just saying this, I don’t know if it’s true. What is it that’s maybe making this shift into digital PR a little more drastic right now?
Georgia: Yeah, I think from my perspective and just purely from what I’ve seen and my personal opinion is that a lot of it is monetary. Um, obviously can’t speak for everyone’s experience, but just from the amount of clients that I’ve seen in my last two agency roles and the agency around I run now are really trying to get the most for their money.
Um, and trying to encourage different types of tactics. I think where people used to, brands used to realize that they could spend. Maybe whatever the retainer is, like a massive retainer with a traditional PR agency, and they would spend equally as much as a digital PR agency working with both.
They’re kind of realizing, actually, I want to go with the one that understands both channels, and it kind of leans into that way, and then they obviously, a better value for that, um, by paying less. But yeah, it’s a really interesting one. I do think that a lot of brands still see the value in traditional PR on its own and digital PR on its own.
But I think, you know, where money is tight at the moment, the industry is changing. And from my perspective, that’s a massive factor.
Vince: Yeah, we’ll see. We’ll see how this shakes out in the next few years. I feel like in the U.S., it seems like we’re still a little behind on the pure digital PR tactics that the UK has been so good at and adopted so well.
So, all right, let’s, let’s get into some of the tactical stuff because I feel like this is what listeners are really going to be here for.
So, Traditional PR tactics, I feel like there’s probably a lot that digital PRs can learn. So let’s kind of break it down into kind of sections. So let’s start with like the pitch process.
What are some things that digital PRs can learn in the pitch process?
Georgia: Uh, the, I think the pitch process is the main one for me. And I think it’s making sure that we’re viewing the journalists from a human perspective and not just as a number that makes up an open rate. I think again, Like working in agencies, I think there’s so much pressure on PRs to, you know, um, hit that open rate, whether it’s internal people or clients that are like, what’s the open rate?
What’s the coverage rate?
Um, and so you’re constantly thinking about the numbers, but actually what we can take from traditional PR that maybe, you know, a lot of traditional PRs I know actually don’t even track open rates, which is kind of crazy to me. Um, but they are just purely viewing things from a human perspective and trying to like build on connections.
So like, for example, using like personalized outreach.
So not just saying like, hi, first name, but actually being like, um, oh, I read this article you like posted the other day. And it is very like tailored, tailored, tailored in traditional PR.
Um, I think. In digital PR, we have not every agency, but a lot of agencies and a lot of independent PRs haven’t always used this tactic because we create really good stories.
I mean, some of the digital PR stories out there are just. So like they are literally like tabloid gold and they just get loads of links and they don’t really need that personalization because the journalist, if they see a good story, they’ll publish it.
But I think as we mentioned earlier, with the shift of clients wanting kind of more traditional PR tactics and link from that, links from that, we need to learn to adapt our strategies and use more personalization so we can get links in, you know, founder profile pieces and product outreach and that kind of thing, um, because I think it is going to get harder and harder to cut through the noise for sure.
Vince: Yeah. And we talked a little bit, I think, before recording here about this idea of like pushing away from the like bulk outreach and moving more towards the, the highly personalized stuff. So there’s a lot of kind of back and forth with the. Depending on the people I talk to and the type of outreach they do where we talk specifically about personalization.
Let’s start here. What does personalizing an email look like to you in a traditional PR? Like what is the best practice for personalization?
Georgia: Yeah, so I think it definitely like it’s very easy for me to maybe sit here and say personalize. Every single email you send, realistically, that’s not always going to be possible because of, you know, the amount of pressure on PRs, like we have a lot of clients, we have a lot of work to do.
And if we have a media list of 200 journalists and we’re sat there personalizing every single email, like that would be the dream. And I would love to be able to do that, but it’s just not always possible. So I think what. I would advise, and what I try to do and put into practice at Earth is segmenting your media list.
So you might have a top priority, a middle tier, and then a lower tier. Your lower tier should still be personalized to a certain extent, but maybe, for example, in BuzzStream, you can use the high first name and then insert publication names and whatnot.
So that helps you get that kind of lower-level personalization. Then, you know, you can kind of split it up into the types of publications.
So, for example, if you’re reaching out to the Sun or something like that in the U.S., like the New York Post or something like that, and they’re a little bit more relaxed in their tone of voice, a little bit more informal, you can adjust your subject line or your intro sentences to match that tone of voice.
Whereas if you’re going after somewhere like Vogue or somewhere very, very high-end, they obviously use a little bit more kind of affluent language, so you can kind of personalize it in that way. Um, so really tailoring it. And then your top tier section of that media list. Ideally, you would be able to connect with that journalist and say something like, Oh, I saw your recent piece on XYZ.
These are my thoughts. I’ve actually got a similar pitch here that I think would work really well for your readership. Here’s why it’s relevant. Um, and then obviously the more info.
So that’s kind of the way that I was taught to do it in traditional PR and the way that I’ve always done it in digital PR.
And that works really, really well.
Vince: Yeah, I love that. So it’s sounds like we’re like breaking up our media list into these are the, are, you know, VIPs, right. Who deserve that, that highly personalized treatment. And then there’s like lower level personalization where it’s at, you know, at least getting the name, right.
Georgia:
Yeah. Making, making sure like the industry is right. They are relevant. And then. Maybe there’s a bottom level where it’s like we at least know that these people are in the industry. Exactly.
Vince: Okay. I love that I wanted to get to this a little later, but I think it’s probably a good thing to discuss now. Using a media database versus building your own list. Do you always use a media list when you do outreach?
Georgia: So I Actually, this is kind of a fairly new thing for me. I’ve stopped using a media database, like all together. So I now just use like my master list and update them. So I have like, yeah, it’s fairly new for me. Cause I found like when I had my media database, I almost used it. And I think this will relate to a lot. PRs use it as a little bit of a crutch. So, if I’m really, really busy and I’ve got so much going on, I’ll just quickly double-check my media list to make sure everything fits on that database, no one has moved around or whatever, maybe add a few contacts like that, just say, I don’t know, like new digital journalist or whatever, and just be really lazy.
And that’s not great and not best practice. So now that I’ve not got that as a crutch, I’m finding that, you know, I’m taking that time to like really make connections and get better results. Um, even though I’m still as busy as always, but yeah, what I tend to do now is.
And then I will, you know, if I get a bounce back, I’ll obviously like update it, find where that journalist has gone, see if it’s still relevant, uh, keeping on top of things like Twitter or X, I should say, and like keeping on top of journalist moves, that sort of thing, manually updating it. And then if I’m looking for emails, I’ll I honestly, I’ve been so shocked since I’ve got rid of that media database how many journalists have their emails now in their Twitter bio and on their author profiles?
Like, I swear it’s more than it ever used to be, which is just brilliant. Um, and yeah, and then using like the occasional tool to try and find like an email, but I definitely think, you know, updating the media list as well like based on the topic. So like I have those master media lists, but if I’m doing topical research, like I’ll still update it, but again, just using those like similar practices of just, you know, finding the journalist, but just not using a database. Open rates have gone up, like everything’s looking positive.
So yeah, I would, I would recommend it personally. It’s a little bit more time consuming, but it is good.
Vnce: Yeah. I love that. I wrote a whole post about building your own media list for free. And I have always done that.
I’ve never really used it. Media database, because I think to your point, like putting the time into to make sure it’s the right person and like being able to personalize like you can only really do that with your own list. So, um, kudos to you for, you know, cutting the cord for, you know, making the switch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, let’s dig in more to the target and audience building process. So what kind of checks do you do? Let’s say this with your media list that you would have done, you know, with traditional PR: What have you learned there to really hone in on the right people and get these relevant audiences?
What can we learn from traditional PR tactics?
Georgia: Yeah, for sure. Well, I think something that we don’t tend to do maybe as much in digital PR is connecting with journalists on social media. So obviously they’re professional social media. I say that with like a preface that if they’re just posting like family photos on Instagram, definitely don’t go follow them on there.
A little bit weird. Um, but no, like on Twitter and like, even on LinkedIn now loads of journalists are posting on that. And I think when I was working in digital PR agencies, um, and in that environment in house as well, I was always kind of told to make those connections and support their work as well.
And that’s a really great way to build a relationship. So if they’ve, even if it’s totally irrelevant, if they’ve written an article on, I don’t know, like the economy or whatever, and you’re doing something on fashion, but you find that article really interesting, like reply, say, like, or, or even just like it or whatever it might be.
And then make a note of it in your media list that you really enjoyed the article. And then, I mean, I’m saying they wrote about the economy and I’m going to pitch fashion that doesn’t really match up, but we’ll just pretend in this, in this case that they’re a freelancer and they do lots of different things, but, um, saying you’re then going to go pitch them later, you can then say, Oh, I saw this piece and they’ll know that you actually did because you’ve liked it.
So that’s a great way to do it.
And then, um, In terms of like actually finding and targeting those right journalists to, to do that too. It’s all about relevancy.
So again, like not using a media database and just like looking on Google News and, um, other search engines as well. Because sometimes Google News might obviously not bring up like everything.
You can use things like DuckDuckGo or look at Different campaigns that have done really well, look at that backlink profile, and see what journalists have written about it. That’s probably a bit more of a digital PR tactic, but yeah, looking at things like that in terms of targeting and yeah, just connecting on socials is just a really, really great way to do that, and it helps you.
When you’re in your feed as well, you can also, like, kind of curate a feed in which you’re seeing, um, loads and loads of articles come up constantly.
So if you’re looking at that and, um, you’re seeing like frequently the same journalists cropping up that are talking about similar topics and you’re liking those and engaging, you know, that’s going to make them remember your name.
You’re going to immediately think of them. And it’s a great way to kind of like, Expand your own PR mind, I guess, a little bit. So when you’ve got, you know, a product that’s come from a client and they’re like, we want you to pitch this immediately. You’re like, I know exactly who would like that. And then you pitch it and then they recognize you from liking and supporting their work.
So that’s a good way to do it as well. I hope that answers your question. I feel like I’ve waffled a little bit there.
Vince: No, that’s great. I mean, uh, it brings up another question and thought I’ve had a lot in this industry is. Do you think the people that are most successful in digital PR are the ones that can bring their own personal relationships they’ve had with other, maybe not personal, you know, professional relationships they’ve built over time with journalists?
Like, I think about it from maybe like a sales perspective or something. It’s like people had their little rolodex of clients or something that they bring in, you know, it’s like you hire, you would hire someone because of the connections they had. Yeah. Do you think about it that way in, in digital PR, like is a, is a digital PR or link builder like only as strong as the connections they’ve made and can kind of bring with them?
Georgia: I would say no actually I would say that yeah, I suppose that kind of little black book mentality is still very prevalent in traditional PR Um, but in digital PR, I would say it’s not the case. And I think there is this misconception that, um, there’s a misconception that relationship building and having a relationship with a journalist means that you’re like best friends and that you follow each other back on Instagram and you’re going for coffees like once a week and you have this amazing relationship.
And I think that’s what we think of. And that’s a misconception. Actually, I would say a relationship is something that’s Something as little as a journalist, um, maybe just remembering your name and knowing that you’re really responsive for interior expert requests, for example, or, um, maybe they’ve got you on one of their lists.
Like I know for a fact, I’m a featured on a few of these lists and that’s so great. It’s when a journalist has like a request for a product or an expert commentary and they’ll just fire out. an email to this list of people or PRs that they know represent those clients. And then you can get back and be responsive and then you get to stay on that list.
Like that’s a relationship. That’s a privilege to be on that list. And you’ve earned your way there through things like, um, you know, sending relevant content and being responsive and being quick with your replies and, you know, saying thank you. If you get coverage, you know, that’s a relationship. So. It doesn’t need to be, you know, I’ve got my big Rolodex of contacts and that’s why you should hire me.
I think it’s more, you know, if you are a good pr, you have good practices in place and you know you are like a reliable contact for journalists, you will naturally, naturally create good relationships, um, that get you coverage. And that relationship isn’t always schmoozing and going out for dinner. It can look like something a lot simpler.
Vince: Yeah, that’s such great advice, Georgia. I like this idea of that, uh, relationship. Building is it’s just kind of being on their radar.
Like it doesn’t have to be. Yeah, because I talked with an agency owner We were talking a little bit about like the differences between UK and US digital PR and how you know obviously like the US is so much bigger and when you think about UK like a lot of people do talk about like getting you know meeting journalists and for coffee and and like how I feel like that tradition is so important a little more prevalent in the U.K. obviously, because it’s so small and you can actually do that.
But like, if I’m here in New York and I’m trying to reach out to someone in Texas or something. It’s like, I won’t fly out and meet them unless you have an amazing company that pays your expenses for that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, just this idea of like being on the radar.
Do you find in the traditional PR versus digital PR space, the like, Expert quote request. Would you put that solely in the digital PR space, or is that something that crosses over between digital and traditional?
Georgia: Definitely crosses over. I remember when I used to work, um, at another agency, we would frequently work with, so we would digital PR, we would frequently work with brands who had digital PR.
Traditional PR agencies as well. And we would kind of have this like ongoing battle of like fighting over like whose remit is the expert comment. And I, I think it’s both and it, you know what? It totally makes sense. Cause it’s absolutely fantastic tactic for link building. Like I use it constantly, uh, for link building, but then equally it’s a reputation.
It’s the reputation of the, the business is the reputation of the spokesperson. So it’s definitely both.
Vince: Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about that too. Cause I think it’s a great tactic that you can speak to. What, what have you learned there from the traditional PR since making over to digital PR? What, what can people take from a tactical level there for the like expert quote commentary strategy?
Georgia:
Yeah, no, this, I think I actually did a LinkedIn post on this the other day, I think a lot. Yeah, a lot of things that I, uh, see. In digital PR when I’m looking at expert commentary, and I say this from like a manager’s perspective, so I’ve been a manager in my last couple of roles and managed some fantastic digital PRs, um, and looking at maybe some expert commentary that had need improvement.
And the digital PR side is that we’re kind of, when we’re doing an expert commentary, I’ll find that a lot of digital PRs will, um, they will maybe just in their expert commentary, just explain what’s happening. I’m trying to think of an example that shows it maybe like, um, if it’s a, it’s a news jacking kind of expert commentary, they’ll just kind of explain what the situation is, but I always say what we can learn from traditional PR is when you’re building that reputation, reputation, you want to be seen as you want this expert to be seen as an authority.
You want them to be seen as someone who is a market leader in that space. So what is like, what differentiates.
This comment to being a market leader in that industry. And it’s adding like value, adding a comment that is gonna, you know, change the way the journalist thinks about the topic, or it’s going to bring something totally new to the conversation. Yeah. So it’s what value are you adding to that comment rather than just explaining the situation or, you know, a lot of the time it’s like giving a top tip or, you know, a hack that everyone’s already heard of, but no, you need to add something completely new because.
When you use that tactic, you are managing the reputation of that expert’s spokesperson, so you need to make sure it’s giving value.
Vince: Yeah, another great tip there, Georgia. Okay, let’s move on to the ideation process again. Like we’re doing this backwards. You know we talked about this zombie apocalypse. In the very beginning, you talked about this zombie apocalypse, like the best cities for zombie apocalypse, right?
Like, that to me kind of screams digital PR piece, right? But I’m sure there are things built into that that traditional PRs love. And let’s use that as an example. But what can digital PRs learn from traditional PRs in the ideation process? What makes a great idea from a traditional standpoint? And how can you translate that over?
Georgia: Yeah, so traditional PR. I think one of the things that we tend to do or what I was always taught when I first started in traditional PR was to not take inspiration just from PR and it would be looking at things like General marketing. So like email marketing, even like signing up to email newsletters that, you know, not a PR newsletter, but like a newsletter to a brand, like, for example, like Innocence Smoothies, like they always have fantastic copywriting and stuff like that, or, you know, You know, um, Gymshark do really great social campaigns.
So like following them and looking for inspiration outside of just the lens of traditional PR. Um, one of the places that I go to all the time is Famous Campaigns. They share loads and loads of like advertising, um, looking at, you know, what’s on billboards and things. And, um, and there’s so many like CGI campaigns going around right now.
And it’s making sure that you kind of step out of the narrow lens that is. I suppose digital PR in this context and looking at, okay, well, what, uh, what other brands doing like market leaders doing that, you know, could draw some inspiration and obviously, you know, you don’t have to launch a CGI campaign just cause everyone else is, but it’s just a case of like, just getting that inspiration.
So yeah, I would say one of the main things we’re taught is to, um, look outside of our remit, essentially. Okay. Um, and see what other brands are doing and then not just like focusing as well. Um, like I used to work for a lifestyle PR agency and it was very much just, you know, fashion beauty lifestyle and that was it but I used to take a lot of inspiration from You know other places and like, um, like movies and tv and all that kind of stuff So not just being laser focused on your industry and looking outside of that is really great for the ideation process.
Vince: I think one thing that comes up there when I think about that is like, where do you know what to extract from an idea? You know, like, cause people can sometimes extract the wrong thing or like get too far outside of their own industry when they’re trying to do something like that. So like, how do you think through that?
Georgia: Yeah. Well, I always, always like try and note down objectives. Like, I think this is like a really like easy point to think about when you’re doing your research or you’re looking at things for ideation, always have your objectives. So is it, um, from like a traditional PR perspective, is it, um, that you want to grow awareness for a certain, a certain service that you’ve just launched, or, you know, you really want to get a coverage for a specific product.
And every time you look at something, you think, okay, how can I apply that?
To that objective or that goal. Um, so that’s a really great way to draw out something relevant. Um, I think also like, say for an example, like I’ve seen tons of like CGI campaigns recently. And sometimes I think they’re a little bit cringe, um, but you can draw good things out of things that you’re unsure about.
So maybe like if you’re looking at something and you really like it, or you like it a bit, but you’re not quite sure, try and like, look at it and be like, Hey, what is it? It might be something as, you know, unique as the composition of the camera angles or something like really random or like the font that’s being used.
So it’s not always like, Oh, this is like the most brilliant campaign ever. But you can draw little things from that and be like, Oh, I really like the way that, you know, they use a voiceover in that video and then you might not even go away and make video content, but then you’ve got that there and that might spark an idea somewhere else.
Um, so that’s a good way to draw out, um, good content.
Vince: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Like kind of focusing in on what it is that makes this unique to you and translating that over to your piece. I want us to hit on like two other things before we leave. And I know back on LinkedIn, I think the reason, one of the reasons that we met, we were talking specifically about outreach proper, using a tool to do outreach and doing like this Click track, uh, open rate tracking, that sort of thing.
You had a great point that when you’re using click tracking software, sometimes. Journalists will just come in, take that link, not even look at, you know, what it’s linking to and just insert that right into the post. Um, and they’re, you know, you know, realistically like that’s not going to be what we need and like it’s hard for you to find that after the fact.
What are your tips there in something like that? For example, how do you do it when you come across that and how do you avoid that?
Georgia: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, the main thing that you’ve mentioned right there is to, if you’re using like a tool like BuzzStream, for example, if your main aim is to build links, like don’t have your link tracking on because it’s just going to like, if they do copy and paste your link, it’s just going to be, I’m not sure a hundred percent what kind of link you would call it, but it will, it will be diluted.
Yeah. To your website. So it’s not going to have that same SEO value.
Um, which is obviously not great when we’re trying to build links that have SEO value. So definitely turn click tracking off. That’s a mouthful. I think if it’s after the fact and you’ve built a link and you’ve just realized, Oh no, like my link tracking was on and you know, the links are all coming through and they’ve all been diluted through this, um, kind of tracking URL.
You can still report on it. It’s still great. Awareness and all that lovely stuff. You know, I’m bringing the traditional PR side of me, and it’s awareness and all that lovely stuff. I have had it in the past where I’ve actually contacted a journalist and just said to them, look, I’m so sorry. I’ve accidentally given you a tracking link.
Um, would you mind swapping it to this? And they have done it in the past. So it’s not ideal. I feel like journalists do not want to be contacted to change links like that, but I have done it in the past and it has worked, so you can do that as well. Yeah, I mean, to me, like, that seems like the easiest solution, but I guess, yeah, you’re definitely right.
Vince: It’s like, you don’t want to be pestering them about things after the fact they’ve done this work for you.
You talk about open rate a lot. I do worry sometimes with like open rates that they can be somewhat misleading. How do you mitigate for some of the, you know, like, for instance, Apple, anytime you send to like an Apple email, like it will automatically say that it’s.
Even if they haven’t opened it. So how do you mitigate for some of those things that like the open rate might get conflated? Are you looking at this directionally? Or do you use open rate for A B testing? Like talk to me a little bit about that.
Georgia: Yeah, a mixture of both. So it’s interesting you mentioned A B testing.
Like that is something that I used to do quite a lot. I feel like I’ve got it nailed now. Like what subject lines are working and what aren’t, but definitely like a few years ago, I would use it for A B testing. It’s something I would still encourage people use for A B testing. Like if you’re trying different subject lines or, you know, maybe you’re trying something with an image and something without like that could be a really great way to really figure out what’s working.
Um, and just using it as a guide. I think that’s the main thing. Don’t use an open rate as the be-all and end-all. I’ve had some pieces get an open rate of like 98 percent, and no coverage has come through. And then I’ve had another piece that got like 25 percent because half of the contacts were out of the office, and then it got like 10 pieces.
It’s really not indicative of the results you’re going to get. Um, I think there’s a lot of pressure. Um, if you tell clients that you track open rates, they might get a little bit hooked on that and can start asking. I know that’s something that’s happened to me before. So it’s just about. You know, managing those expectations, even with internal stakeholders as well.
And just saying like, look, you know, these are a guide to see how well things are going, but they are not the be all and end all. Um, you know, you can have journalists, it might say on, you know, BuzzStream that they’ve opened the email 30 times, but you still might not get coverage. And then something might be open twice and it, it converts.
So it’s definitely, yeah, as I said, more of a guide than anything else.
Vince: Yeah, that’s great points. Okay, last thing, I want to see if we can kind of leave listeners with kind of the future of digital PR in your, your view. Like, where do you see the industry going? What do you see working these days and in the future versus What hasn’t been working?
Georgia: That’s a very big, big question to end on. I like it. Um, I think for me, obviously like there are things that everyone talks about, so like relevance, like we’re definitely moving away from like irrelevant campaigns. I think we’ve seen on Twitter, like loads of people being called out for doing like irrelevant things, which, you know, I don’t necessarily agree with calling people out online, but you know, I think it’s encouraging people to move away from those irrelevant campaigns.
Same. That’s definitely a direction we’re going in. Um, I think ethics in digital PR is massive now and will continue to be. Um, you’re not going to get, well, I hope to not get any kind of health experts as an example, like saying I’m a health expert, these are my five tips. And then you, yeah. And then you end up finding out they’re just like the marketing manager for a health brand or something like that.
And they’re doctors. So yeah, I think we’re definitely kind of thinking more about. That actual person that impacts when we are, you know, sending out these campaigns, we’re being so much more mindful about the reader, you know, we think about links, we get so obsessed with, um, you know, or coverage views in the traditional PR case, but actually there’s someone at the end of all of this at home reading these five tips and might actually go and implement them.
So it’s really important that we think about that and the impact of our work and we’d be really mindful of those readers. Um, so I think that’s going to be key in the future of digital PR. I think when we do training for junior digital PRs, I think we’re going to factor in ethics in that training, whereas we never used to do that.
Um, and yeah, and I think SEO again, like obviously we wouldn’t have digital PR without SEO. They go hand in hand. Um, but I think in terms of like—career trajectories for digital PRs. When I first started, you know, you could just build links and that would be your whole job. Whereas now reporting on organic performance is day in and day out.
So I think digital PR and SEO will blend more and more and more in the future. It’s just going to continue to, to kind of, the roles will intersect continuously.
Vince: Yeah, I agree with, with all those definitely and I love that idea of creating content that people are going to actually use. I feel like that’s, that’s something that sometimes gets lost when you’re, you know, you’re under the gun to great content and get links and you’re just kind of thinking about it from a strategic point of view, but not from like a personal point of view.
And at the end user, the end of the day, we, we want to provide things that are actually helpful and make sense. You know, the web, a better place and everything. And that’s probably even more important nowadays with AI overviews coming out and like presenting real information. It seems like that’s Uh, what we need to be doing.
So, uh, Georgia, this has been so awesome. Thanks so much for joining us. You can find Georgia on Twitter, Georgia Gatsby PR. She’s also on LinkedIn. Like I said, that’s where we had connected. So check her out. She tweets and writes a lot of great stuff and shares a lot of great tips. Georgia, thanks so much for joining us.
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